Geert Wilders What is going on ? Did they forget about the Holocaust ?!?

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Comment by Uncle PretzelFlash on June 9, 2009 at 4:49am

Truth is indeed stranger than fiction, and increasingly+(cross)dimensional.
everything makes sense when thinking in the 10th dimension, right?

Thinking from different angles. triple Angle ReligiousAtheistGnostic.

Covering all corners of the triangle.

(, those trinities are nicely found.)

Also, why does a bad expirience with christianity, prove that all religion is bad.
the variables of big G's or Y's of J's may chance form place to place. And me much more platable in different contexts.

Comment by Laurence on June 8, 2009 at 7:00pm

@ Tubejay, I didn't enjoy it back in those days, I had no access to it, and no net access either till the very early part of this decade :P

"education is better than suppression"... I'm agreeing with this now, And this comes back to something I feel strongly about. Going by my parental upbringing and early scholar education, it was a case of "since you are a christian, Be sure you do A+B+C and don't do or indulge in X+Y+Z, or the big G and little J will not be happy and punish you in later/after life, as has happened in this part of the bible".

If I had to re-live my childhood I don't want to be made to live my life like that, If There was any way i was able to do any in depth research into it at any age in my youth, I'd obviously do it and then say, "nope, no thanks, not for me, I'll go back to my own life now". Children should not be manipulated in this matter, ergo they shouldn't be inducted into religions at very early ages (via mechanisms such as baptisms or any others), education is Key here, but not from an internal fear-mongering perspective like I experienced. From the "outside in" is a good, if not the best way, ie as a "non-member". As for the means to this, I dunno, maybe compulsory ancient history classes with emphasis on religion, taught from an "outside in" standpoint Could provide school pupils with enough of a "neutral perspective" to decide whether religion is right for them.

"people don't just learn about religion from their parents. do you also control television?"

Coming from the UK, I've grown up for the must part with only 4 channels on TV, I never had the "joy" of encountering tellyvangelism(sp?), I've gone off British TV since it became a reality & talent show Shmorgasborg, but I'm thankful that it kept religion away from my viewing eyes, mainly because the only religious viewing on this island in my memory has been songs of praise, and that is just plain dull. :P

Comment by Uncle PretzelFlash on June 8, 2009 at 1:41pm

tears fell in my coffee,

happy tears : ) .

Thats put very well TubeJay. starting to fly, I will try to keep clear in the discussion.

There is also people that grow up in oppressive Atheist/Secular societies.
Most of us are induced into secular/atheist worldview, at least I am. StarTrek futures forever.

I would never have doubted such things as "the ban on headscarfs" or "evolution", if not for my own research.

it seems that the opposite side mostly is very understandable, if seen from the others point of view.

I try to switch-think myself to the opposites,

And the own position can be/is as nonsensical like the others.

All being Same Nonsensicals in reality too.

I agree TubeJay, Free Complete Education is key, for being able to make the right choice for oneself.

Comment by Uncle PretzelFlash on June 8, 2009 at 10:12am

Which ideologies should children then be brought up in?

Comment by Laurence on June 8, 2009 at 9:32am

Currently the human race is in the middle of a vicious cycle, With Parents Bringing children into religion far too early in their lives, and in turn the children they have will be inducted into religion near birth and so on, and so forth.

The cycle must be broken, or at the very least postponed & in my honest opinion, keeping all children born within the next couple of decades from being inducted into any religion - till a certain age - would go a long way to making our species less prone to blind faith and dogmaticism which would then mean less fundamentalism and extremism. Thinking on the fly here, how about keeping religious info Free to access, then not allowing People to join a religion untill a certain age. Religion to me is like marriage - in my view worth avoiding altogether :P . Seriously though it's a lifelong commitment that you make and not a decision that can be made effectively before someone reaches - at the earliest - their late teens, and both have great repercussions if the relationship turns sour :P

Comment by Laurence on June 8, 2009 at 6:27am

"So laurence if I understand right, the banning for the youth and holy scriptures is more like a scripture can be PG rated or 17+rated movie."

Kind of, I didn't start become an Athiest until my mid to late teens, when through applying simple logic, i realised I'd have lived a happier life if religion wasn't a part of it. People convert to different religions all the time in their adult lives, for varying reasons. But at these stages in life (late teens/early 20's upwards) People will have developed their own sense of reasoning and logic. so - hypothetically speaking - they'd study all the backstory, commitments, lifestyles and rules of any religion before committing themselves to it, Kinda like going over all the pages of small print in a mortgage or rental contract to fully ascertain what they'd be letting themselves in for.

After they reach this age, the key thing is that they can be Allowed to join or become part of a religion. They shouldn't have to.

However I'm not keen children having access to religious info in their youth, at least not at this present moment in time, because they'd still be pressurized into it by their "blind faith" seniors.

I'm all for learning science, you don't need to be baptised or circumcised in order to study physics,
chemistry, biology, or even evolution or Geology :P. I'd rather learn about Chemical reactions and theory of movement rather than discovering there's a deity who likes to kill people's firstborn =/

Comment by Uncle PretzelFlash on June 8, 2009 at 4:13am

So laurence if I understand right, the banning for the youth and holy scriptures is more like a scripture can be PG rated or 17+rated movie.

Like tobacco and alcohol, only when 21+

But are we not indoctrinated by secular views and science too ? Should becoming secular and atheist be forbidden till a certain age too?

Maybe children from young age could have access to all knowledge indiscriminatly secular, occult and religious.

Incorporating into society a certain ritual of choosing when 21, like a graduation.

Comment by Laurence on June 7, 2009 at 3:15pm

Glad to see you realise it :)

I forgot to mention earlier that I found those pictures funny (the latter 2, My German isn't good enough to translate the first one of - what I'm presuming is - Jewish people), Satire if you will. Kinda like the first wave of religious outrage that came along after Life of Brian was released (life of mohammed anyone? :P ) . Criticism and making fun of religion or religious fundamentalism (reworded for tubejay ;) ) does not count as Antisemitism (try telling that to someone in the israeli army), otherwise I'd be preaching & calling for the same stuff that Hitler did during his political career & leadership. I like to think I'm better than that :P

As someone who had a catholic religious upbringing and education (emphasis on had), I feel I can speak with authority on this. Children are inducted into different kinds Religion right from near birth, and then they are taught Various stories from the bible and are often told to read it in its entirity, and believe in it without question - Often Well before they reach their teens. This leads to unhealthy blind faith and dogmaticism in later life.

I can't speak for the Koran, but as far as the bible goes, there is more death, destruction, Sadness, violence, fear mongering, and Illogical magic and mysticism than Texas chainsaw massacre, the terminator series, And the lord of the rings trilogy combined. And the Bible is something that people young or old can read at any age, where as the above films can't (legally) be seen until someone hits their mid-late teens.

This is personally why I said what I said, I'd go as far as saying that no one should be allowed to join any religion until a similar age, If such a scheme was put into place by whatever means in whichever location, then there would be less blind faith, less dogmaticism, more integration, as ideally people will think for themselves, Ideally they will do the groundwork and research, weigh out the pro's and cons, and decide whether Any religion is for them, or they could just continue living their life.

Comment by Uncle PretzelFlash on June 6, 2009 at 7:12pm

as there laws of the Ten Commandments incorporated into secular law.
So is a lot of Sharia already incorporated into secular law.
It is suggested that many of the social care systems are similar to sharia of medievil Cordoba or Granada, in the times of the Moors of Andalucia, which where quite enlightened. With high scientific knowledge.

Also in reference of my earlier replies, I was on an emotional trip of selfrightous vigilance.
Laurence and TubeJay, I do not hold in my heart the believe that you are antiSemetic.
I took the quotes out of context

Comment by Uncle PretzelFlash on June 6, 2009 at 10:47am

This guy Wilders, uses it:
first time his party got elected into the parliament he said:

"More good values, Less Islam."

A good example of how words stigmatize a whole population.
Which made Islam equal to bad values.

Y see how they do it?

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