Abortion.

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Permalink Reply by tubejay on January 3, 2009 at 12:51pm

well, this thread is going to suck. constitutionally minded people will likely see it as an invasion of privacy, as i, (for any people that see this and don't understand it, yes, i'm serious) and most people that see life as sacred will see it as a tragedy, as i, but progressives and most liberals (and some conservatives) will ultimately treat it as a right, regardless (as i.)

but out of sheer practicality, abortion is going to happen whether it's banned or not. the real ethical questions are, what can be done for children and, if we accept the reality that abortions will happen, how can we minimize the suffering they cause? do we allow unlicensed or incompetent people to perform them illegally and put a second life at risk, or do we make the most of the reality and at least protect the mother from bodily harm?

the pro-life position is about letting people suffer as a deterrent or punishment for what is seen as murder. murder itself is a legal issue (it's common for so called pro-lifers to not see war or capital punishment as state-sponsored "murder") where abortion is a (severe) matter of ethics. my position is about minimizing death and suffering, but the ethics, while more complicated than any of us prefer, matter also.

speaking practically about real life and not just ideals, the best way to prevent abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. unfortunately, "abstinence training" (simply banking on people being willing to forgo sex) has been shown statistically to lead to higher teen pregnancy rates than giving sarah palin's daughter a fucking box of condoms (sorry, had to say it.)

then when it's time to deal with children that can't be afforded, we cut funding for foster care (there's nothing pro-life about that,) and we demonize women for taking child support, welfare, or any other measures that would lead to a decent life for that child we pretended we gave a shit about in the fetal stage.

in short, giving pro-lifers a fetus is like giving a kid a puppy. sure, they can't bear to live without the puppy, but after a few weeks, they're going to do sweet fuck all to see that it's taken care of.

and because the way of life we prepare for the unwanted children we refuse to help prevent in the first place is so unloving and uncaring, abortion becomes the most merciful thing we can allow. that's tragic, but take a look at your life. if it's worth anything to you, the times that matter to you most probably weren't spent in the womb.

so if you (and i speak not to the original poster but anyone who does consider themselves pro-life,) really want to call yourself pro-life, stand up for what you believe in. rather than blowing up abortion clinics like a hypocrite, why not be pro-life for more than just the first nine months? that will do more to end abortion than your stupid bans ever will. the problem is the same with any political issue, though. offer a superficial solution to a complex problem, and people will fight to the death to make it so.

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Permalink Reply by I'llturnnative on January 3, 2009 at 8:27pm

Well said, here here! Or is it hear hear?

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Permalink Reply by tubejay on January 3, 2009 at 10:36pm

it's "hear, hear." it comes from "hear ye," or "hear him."

and thanks :)

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Permalink Reply by elmolinero on January 3, 2009 at 1:15pm

Well, I'm definitely pro-choice, but with a caveat. I don't think that abortion should be used as a form of contraception on a regular basis in lieu of other less invasive (pardon the pun) types of contraception.

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Permalink Reply by tubejay on January 3, 2009 at 10:41pm

i never get this argument. i'm not saying it's never happened, but you get the impression that the world is full of people who have no respect for life at all, who really think that getting routine abortions is easier, more desirable, less traumatic, or in any way more convenient than using pretty much any other form of "birth control."

but yeah, i don't think abortion should be used as a form of contraception on a regular basis, either. good luck finding someone who disagrees with you on that. if you do, it's someone who's never had one.

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Permalink Reply by Jordan on January 3, 2009 at 2:28pm

INCOMING SHIT STORM!

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Permalink Reply by I'llturnnative on January 3, 2009 at 8:25pm

ROFL

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Permalink Reply by fussbudget on January 3, 2009 at 10:53pm

I'm going to feel a little bit like a loner here, but I'm pro-life, and I would seek to be the one of whom tubejay describes in his last paragraph. True, complex problems deserve thorough, well thought out answers, but that doesn't mean we should just leave it as so and let politics bicker things out til we become impartial to it.

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Permalink Reply by tubejay on January 3, 2009 at 11:00pm

i don't think anyone is impartial.

at least we can (i'm not assuming we do, but i believe we can) agree that more must be done for the children once they are born. we may even agree (but i prefer not to assume) on the issue of birth control. to be frank, if you are against the right but at least support we do all that is possible for children after they are born (not merely in utero,) and/or support full access to birth control, i wasn't really referring to you. i was referring to people that are less reasonable about it, and there are so many.

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Permalink Reply by fussbudget on January 3, 2009 at 11:13pm

I know, and that's why I said I shall strive to be the one who negates the ignorant ones.

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Permalink Reply by Jason on January 5, 2009 at 3:34am

First off Id like to say abortions are terrible, but I still believe in the right for the mother to make the choice. Sometimes I get the feeling people think that pro-choicers think abortions are perfectly fine which is wrong. Im pro-choice for a number of reasons.

For one, its impractical for abortions to become illegal. If abortions became illegal, what would you do with the guilty people? Sure you can prevent most doctors from doing it, but then all you get is backstreet abortions which no doubt would be horrible, unhygienic and dangerous for the mother.

I also feel its unfair and an injustice to put the fate of the woman, her body and the fetus in the hands of a group of people who decide to make the rules. It is her body, and she should be able to choose what she does.

And also, I really dont like the idea of a child being brought up in a house of neglect and unlove. They could even be born on the streets, homeless with nowhere to go and no chances in life. If the mother is even considering abortion she must have doubts as to how well she can raise the child, how well she can support and nurture the child. For those doubts to spawn into reality is just sad.

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Permalink Reply by tubejay on January 5, 2009 at 11:00am

of course, one can negate all those good points by throwing a word like "abortionist" around, as if by advocating against a dangerous and ill-reasoned ban, you are hoping and promoting the idea that everyone will kill their fetuses.

naturally, the only reason every pregnant woman isn't barefooting it at top speed to the clinic is because she knows that the right could ban it just as she gets in the door.

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