where should the line be drawn for advertising?

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Permalink Reply by Alex V. on August 21, 2008 at 6:58pm

When I walk on the streets, I don't even notice adverts, they are just blobs of colour and letters. With online shows, such as Epic FU, you can't not notice adverts, as they are embedded in the show. But it's ok, because I understand that you do have to make a living, and it's a small price to pay for what you're giving in return. However, I have noticed lately on YouTube some videos with overlayed ads, like for example in this one (it triggers at second 11), and I find it extremely annoying.

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Permalink Reply by Jonndailey on August 21, 2008 at 7:38pm

I think independent content creators like Epic Fu are going about making money the right way. The ads are fairly quick and you don't have them popping up in the lower 3rd of the screen at random intervals in the show. Zadi is very upfront when she's talking about the ads and doesn't try to slip anything in under the radar. Being genuine and having the "ad breaks", as Epic Fu does, is very important.

I hope to never see Zadi wearing a "Wintergreen" shirt as an advertisement. I'm not saying she owes us an explanation, but if she did decide that the next best form of advertising on Epic Fu was wearing it, I'd hope she'd let let the fans know and not try to slip it in under the radar.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Woolf on August 21, 2008 at 10:57pm

Definitely. We will never insert an advertisement without noting it, either with a lower third (titles on the screen) or a verbal callout.

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Permalink Reply by Bennie Simmons on August 21, 2008 at 8:50pm

Well first of all I know everybody has to eat so people who depend on ads need to sell them to do so. I personally sell ads at my job at the newspaper. As far as ads on shows like this I think its great as long as it is done tastefully like on Epic Fu and isn't presented sneaky like. And Chris Brown with the gum aghhhh...I'm not hating on him I actually give him props because he is repping us skinny teenage boys well and the song wasn't half bad but ever since I saw that ad on tv and then hear the song on the radio it feels like someone is trying to force feed me a whole pack of gum…ughhh!!!!

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Permalink Reply by Matt Gowdy on August 21, 2008 at 10:50pm

Ads, ads, and more ads. Street ads, billboard, internet ads, TV ads, radio ads, and more. The sticker campaign is a fun reaction to consumerism, but what's likely to happen is some upstart advertiser is going to make similar stickers promoting stuff, so the whole point of the campaign isn't doing anything but giving advertisers more ammo. Besides, mainstream ads are only seen so negatively because they are mainstream. In about 20-30 years, these ads will be called "retro" or "classic" and come back from the grave.

For the internet, advertising has kind of been the m.o. since the start. Everyone wants to push a product because then they get paid. You can sell product, you can sell someone else's product, or you can game the system. For news media and shows specifically, they have almost always relied on advertising dollars to keep going.

With that in mind, I think relevance is key. The more relevant an ad is to a show (ie. GoDaddy or Netflix for Epic Fu), the more perceptive the audience is. Even better, since the ads are being plugged by the show, the audience is more apt to listen, not mind the ad, and be supportive. At least, in the semi-independent stage of a show.

Then again, people like to throw the term "sellout" out so much these days that it has pretty much lost most of it's meaning. Commissioned art still goes on, but video and music always seem to take the brunt of the complaints. To tell the truth, advertising is, in concept, art with a specific intention. Art is still art, because it conveys something to someone else. Advertising just got better at getting messages across in very pointed manner. But maybe it's part of the culture to just hate stuff you see all the time. After a while, various versions of art get boring and sarcasm spews out of people's mouths like Mt. Vesuvius on volcano day.

I think it's fine that independent content creators use ads to help diffuse costs of their work. Without some form of income, starving artists are literally starving and only so much art can come out of a starving person. To say that an artist has no right to use his or her art to earn a living is extremely hypocritical of most people (many of whom are not professional artists. Yes, art critics, that even means YOU.).

What I wonder in the future of viral advertising, guerrilla ads, and more, is if the line between advertising and content creation will blur so much that we stop caring that it's advertising and watch simply because some of the info is useful. Or because it's been tailored to our particular interests (ie. Minority Report). Then again, there will always be a group of protesters in the back calling bullshit no matter what's on.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Woolf on August 21, 2008 at 10:59pm

You make a great point, Matt. We try to work hard to make sure the advertiser on EPIC FU will actually appeal to our audience. In the end, it's better for us, it's better for the people who watch, and it's much better for the advertiser.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Roberts on August 21, 2008 at 11:38pm

Zadi said in the show that creators like yourselves "depend on advertising," and while I want nothing more than for you to make a living out of this, I'm not convinced you have to depend on advertising to do that. Advertising is the model that a few people have made work, but I've seen very little experimentation with other business models.

Asking for a small payment from each viewer on a weekly basis might work - although I don't know what your audience figures are and how much your costs are. You could even try something more creative, perhaps along the lines of a co-operative, making your viewers co-owners of the content being produced and finding some way for them to influence the content of the show (woah, wait, isn't this what epic-fu does anyway!).

Yeah, I'm dreaming. People are probably too used to getting all their content online for free, but that's sad if it means that we're stuck in front of more and more advertising for the rest of our lives, and I, at least, would like to see some attempts at other models.

Love the show though :D

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Permalink Reply by KTHarHar on August 22, 2008 at 12:36am

I personally think that ads have gotten WAY out of hand.
The issue for me isn't so much about the ads themselves, but the fact that the companies that produce the ads don't care about their consumer base, just the fact that they have a consumer base and that those numbers increase. For instance, the majority of ads for food are targeted to kids because they convince their parents to by it. They refuse to eat supermarket brand rice puffs because they aren't Rice Krispies with Snap, Krackle, and Pop on the box.
When I see ads for large companies what I see is a panel of researchers looking into different demographics of people, deciding who has the most money and convincing power, and appealing only to them.

I feel used by ads.

I refuse to buy any brand that puts their company name or logo on the product itself. I do not need to pay 50 dollars for a shirt that say "Hollister" on it. In fact, Hollister should be paying me 50 dollars for advertising on my body!

I am not ad space.

As for ads in song, that is equal to the ultimate sell out and I REFUSE to listen to that music. I HATE popular rap and hip-hop because all it is is one long audio commercial. I don't want "Apple bottom jeans and the boots with the fur" or fucking Bathen Apes or whatever the hell they are! what the fuck is a Bathen Ape anyways?!!?

Now after that long-ass rant: independent advertising.

I don't mind ads when I feel that I am not getting tricked into buying something. The sketchiness of new ads is what gets me pissed off. When I am treated as a knowledgeable person and not spoon-fed mush crap ads like a mindless baboon, I feel valued as a consumer and feel that it is worth investing my time, money, whatever, into that product or service.

So there. :)

PS: If you want to read up on this argument, my school had us read Culture Jam by Kellie Lasn. I'm not advertising it! Just a book suggestion. Check it out at the library!

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Permalink Reply by brandbulldawg on August 22, 2008 at 7:17am

So, I am a marketer, thus the moniker I have. Advertising for content providers is the only way that quality work is sustainable. You have done an amazing job of weaving in appropriate ads targeted at your audience.

I have to comment on ads in our day to day life though. On any given day, we are bombarded with over 3000 commercial impressions. Think about the logo on your computer, the billboard, the signage on the truck/car you just drove by etc. They are becoming subconscious to most people (see Alex V.'s comment), but they work. They are like white noise in your mind.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Woolf on August 22, 2008 at 9:34am

Which is exactly the reason why advertisers ask for so much -- they want to stand out. That puts the content creator in a tough position, because it can negatively impact the show or website itself.

With that said, we want to make sure that the sponsors who are willing to support EPIC FU are well-served. It's gotta be a balance.

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Permalink Reply by Leadpipe on August 22, 2008 at 1:04pm

What we have to understand first is that all media (yes, even your beloved listener-supported public radio or tv station) is a means by which an audience is delivered to an advertiser. This is the reality of the media environment that we live in. It's what pays the bills and both sides (the ad revenue and content) are trying to use the other to their own ends. It's just how it works.

The question as posed in not specific. Where should the advertising line be drawn? What does that mean? Morally? Ethically? When is too much?

Personally, if some corporation with deep advertising pockets wants to foot the bill for a bus stop so my taxes don't go up, I'll let them. The bills gotta get paid, after all. The ads aren't forcing me to do anything. As subversive as they get, the choice is ultimately mine as to whether I give into whatever image they're trying to build around themselves or message they're trying to convey.

As to the sticker campaign, specifically, to reject the ads is to actively seek them out – taking notice of the ads around them. That's kinda exactly what advertisers are trying to achieve. If you believe in something, don't let me stop you from making a statement about it, but if you're trying to protect yourself from consumer-culture, apathy may be your best line of defense. Hey, is John Stamos trying to sell Doc Martins? Who cares? (Just a random pairing of a celebrity and product).

Failing that, to be savvy enough to recognize an ad when its seen (probably more the point the sticker effort is trying to reach) and evaluate it as such. It's insufficient to blame the ads for people being impulsive and buying into consumer culture. There's more parts to the equation than just advertisers. There's the consumer/audience as well. A little self-control can go a long way to demonizing of corporations and their nasty advertisements.

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Permalink Reply by ksawyer on August 24, 2008 at 11:06pm

Something really has to be done about street ads. The public space they take up can't be purchased or used by people who don't plan on selling a product with it (I couldn't buy a space where a Coke ad currently is and use it to promote dissenting opinions about capitalism or the government, because it has to go through an approval process), and that's a slippery slope to fascism. At the same time, advertising seems to be the saving grace of independent journalism and media, bringing money into an otherwise bankrupt product. I couldn't begin to think where a show like Epic Fu would get its revenue if not for advertisers. Countless other independent journalists count on advertising to give them enough money to keep going.

I've always been an advocate that public space should be used, but it should be available to everyone. Give advertising space the same freedom that lampposts get. Allowing the public to paste their own stuff on top of "regular" advertising would quell the unrest we all subconsciously feel from the swell of product placement. It would also, of course, unravel the money pit that comes from obtaining the rights to use those spaces. It's a vicious circle in every direction and we all lose. But there's also a downside.

The only thing I worry about with shows like Epic Fu is that the advertising is stuck within the show. Several years down the road, long after the cheque from Netflix has been used up, their product placement will still be there when people watch back episodes. Unless you have some kind of clause that says that the ad will be removed from the show after a certain period of time, it'll be there as long as you have the show up, generating extra ad time and space for the advertiser but no more cash for you guys.

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